Ice Garden 9/21

Southwest Montana SCCA discussions for the 2008 season.
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Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:11 am

I have to admit that when I got up early Sunday and it was still dark and drizzling I wasn't all that enthusiastic about getting into my flying tent and going to a cold wet event. But as the sun came up it dried and and warmed just a bit and it turned into a really fun day. I can think of nothing I'd rather day than spend the day with friends making noise and sliding around.

A huge thanks to everyone for coming and to the folks that made it happen. An even huger thanks to Russ for taking the point position and to Mike for driving that POS van down from Helena so we could play.

Let's hope the weather holds for our next event. See you then if not before.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby drzoidberg » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:44 am

Well, I too had the early morning question marks, but once the event got going, it was about as much fun driving as I have ever had. My new tires are incredible and I even got a chance to sling my wife around for a few ride alongs (fastest time included her in the car).

Thanks to Russ for making it all happen and to whoever put that smooth course together. Whoopee!!
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby Mel Kuipers » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:52 am

amen on the thanks for the crew and event...just goes to show what a great time an event can be even if the weather is less than perfect...am looking forward to seeing the times now that I know how the top ten get points...if I miss the top ten by one, it will be because Ray's last run was .001 seconds faster than my best run...if I miss because of that, I can at least take satisfaction in missing it by so little..."missed it by that much" Mel
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby rkaiser » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:19 pm

whoever put that smooth course together


That would be me :) Aside from the computer data entry fiasco the day went well. I'm looking into making sure that doesn't happen again or at least minimize the time required to do so. It was fun to see so many people spin out on the start of lap 2. Lets hope winter holds off for a little while longer and we get once more chance to let you guys (and gals) spin out!
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby RayAR » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:23 pm

Here is to another fun event. I have some pretty crappy video of everyone in run group 2's first run. If you want to see it let me know and I will get it posted on youtube ASAP. I plan to get all of them posted but it will take time.

I think I did pretty good considering the conditions( Cool and Gravel), I looked at the score board after the event and If I didn't miss someone I believe I finished in 6th overall with a bunch of people right on my heals. I think if I could have got the car to turn I could have found a good amount of time in the loop area but I don't think I left much on the table on the other parts of the course. It felt like I was on a skating rink, and I just couldn't get any heat in the tires.

Anyway, unless the weather is warmer Oct 5th then it was Sunday, this will be my last event this year. I will probably show up and find a spot to get some decent video, Maybe bring a ladder and get on the roof :lol: Or maybe just park in the Bank lot and stand in the bed. I will figure out something.
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:12 pm

It was a good course. I think with a small and simple lot like at the Ice Garden it's easy and tempting to try to get too much stuff crammed into the course. Sunday's was very good and smooth and rewarded smooth driving.

Nice work Russ.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby drzoidberg » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:50 pm

Do we have results for this event yet? Maybe that moron who was trying to run the computer in the morning screwed something up (He was driving some kind of Mazda).
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:18 pm

drzoidberg wrote:Do we have results for this event yet? Maybe that moron who was trying to run the computer in the morning screwed something up (He was driving some kind of Mazda).


I never trust those Mazda dudes - they either don't have pistons or they make a "zoom zoom" noise everywhere they go. Creepy.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby rdks » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:44 pm

DaveMk1 wrote:I never trust those Mazda dudes - they either don't have pistons or they make a "zoom zoom" noise everywhere they go. Creepy.


Hey.. i like that zoom-zoom though it is not as loud as a few cars out there.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:49 pm

rdks wrote:
DaveMk1 wrote:I never trust those Mazda dudes - they either don't have pistons or they make a "zoom zoom" noise everywhere they go. Creepy.


Hey.. i like that zoom-zoom though it is not as loud as a few cars out there.


Zoom Zoom is cute but I personally favor BLLAAAAAAAAAAATTTT!

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby Alex » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:44 am

DaveMk1 wrote:Zoom Zoom is cute but I personally favor BLLAAAAAAAAAAATTTT!

dave


Wait a minute... here I thought that was your new exhaust... but its really just you getting excited and yelling?
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:27 am

Alex wrote:
DaveMk1 wrote:Zoom Zoom is cute but I personally favor BLLAAAAAAAAAAATTTT!

dave


Wait a minute... here I thought that was your new exhaust... but its really just you getting excited and yelling?


Eggsactly!

When I put the supertrapp tip on my system I can't seem to yell as loud.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby SpcBizl » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:33 am

has anyone uploaded the pictures yet? or results??? i am excited to see the pictures. i cant wait to see if he took any pictures of the spec b squatting on launch.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:45 am

I too was wondering about the results. I assume someone has them.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby RayAR » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:37 pm

SpcBizl wrote:has anyone uploaded the pictures yet? or results??? i am excited to see the pictures. i cant wait to see if he took any pictures of the spec b squatting on launch.


I am working on getting some video posted as I Type. It is all of the second run group and some in car footage of my car but I believe there is one video of everyone in run group 2. Not great video but beggers can't be chosers now can they. It will be on Youtube, probably the best key words would be autocross and Ice Garden. I have 8 or 9 posted so far. I don't have info on some of the cars and drivers and might even have some wrong so feel free to add or correct my info.


I am also wondering about the results.
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby RayAR » Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:48 pm

It is allmost 1:00 Sunday morning and the last video is uploading. Even with DSL this takes forever, Thank God I don't have dial up or I wouldn't even think about doing this.
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby rkaiser » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:13 pm

Coby, do you have the results on your computer still? We are too used to Nicked speedier approach at posting the results and the wait is killing us!!!!
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby Dogeater » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:54 pm

yes i have them. I was gonna have Nick show me how to post them. I'll email them to him and maybe he'll post them and then show me after. Sorry it's taken so long.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby fastneons » Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:59 pm

Results are up!
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:50 pm

fastneons wrote:Results are up!


Very Cool. Thank you sir.

It looks like Russ and I had a "battle royal" for pax. That was close. I think those tires you are running Russ are the shit.......... well that and you drove really well.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby rkaiser » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:28 pm

I was very impressed with the Toyo R888 I was running that weekend (they were awesome at Lewistown!). I think I would have been a little faster with the Hoosiers but I had a great time and didn't have to change tires. That makes me very happy :)
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:20 pm

rkaiser wrote:I was very impressed with the Toyo R888 I was running that weekend (they were awesome at Lewistown!). I think I would have been a little faster with the Hoosiers but I had a great time and didn't have to change tires. That makes me very happy :)


I fully realize that this will sound silly but here goes - you looked like you were hooking up better with the 888's than you usually do with the Hoosiers.

I wonder?

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby RayAR » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:29 pm

I need to up my game a bit and get running with you guys. Even though I did finish in 6th place overall, being almost 6 seconds behind is unacceptable. That and everyone that finished behind me are to close for comfort, if I would have been just a bit slower I could have easily finished 16th. At least the car is doing much better then last year but it can still be improved(a lot). If I could actually use a bit more throttle in the turns without spinning the inside tire I think that would help a bit and I do have a few ideas on correcting that. I also think it is time to finally replace the head gaskets because I was fighting overheating issues all day. Not an excuse, I know I need to work on my driving but I do wish I built something a bit smaller.
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:30 am

RayAR wrote:I need to up my game a bit and get running with you guys. Even though I did finish in 6th place overall, being almost 6 seconds behind is unacceptable. That and everyone that finished behind me are to close for comfort, if I would have been just a bit slower I could have easily finished 16th. At least the car is doing much better then last year but it can still be improved(a lot). If I could actually use a bit more throttle in the turns without spinning the inside tire I think that would help a bit and I do have a few ideas on correcting that. I also think it is time to finally replace the head gaskets because I was fighting overheating issues all day. Not an excuse, I know I need to work on my driving but I do wish I built something a bit smaller.


Hey Ray,

What kind of adjustability do you have in your suspension? You told me you have a limited slip thingie back there so that should help with the inside wheel spinning but I'm wondering what you could do to get less lateral weight transfer and more weight on that inside tire.

I would think that softening the rear sway bar of you have one would help as would softening the damping and/or rear springs would also help. You car looks very firm and a bit bouncy so it would surprise me if you couldn't gain some stiction back there if you made some changes.

Have you tried anything back there?

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby RayAR » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:51 pm

I put a small sway bar on the rear last winter and that is part of my problem. My plan is to remove the rear bar and up the spring rate in the rear, that should help a lot. The other thing I am going to do is get rid of the polyurethane bushing lower rear control arm and build some with rod ends or at least modify the LCA's with one rod end on each, Polyurethane works fine on the front but just dosen't have enough give in twisting applications like the rear LCA's. I think those 2 changes will keep the inside tire firmly on the ground, There where a few times that I wanted to use more throttle but knew that I couldn't. And yes, the car is very stiff with 1200 lb springs up front and 425's in the rear. Am I to Stiff? Well I was told from a nationally competitive CPer that I need to have the wheel rates at about 600 lbs to be in the ball park. I would say with the sway bars I am pretty close.

The Limited slip I have is a Zexel torsion unit from a newer Camaro and really dosen't have enough bias to work in this application, but it is better Then an open diff or spool. One of these days I will be able to afford a full floater 9 inch with a trutrac, until then I will get by with what I have.
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:28 pm

I wonder how well it would work if you just bailed on the rear sway bar and left the spring rates alone? A little rearward weight shift would aide in acceleration and launch and the reduced roll stiffness would help in keeping that inside tire hooked up. I think just changing the one thing and then testing it would also be beneficial so you know what has what effect. Whenever I change more than one thing I get lost and waste a bunch of time.

One thing I see when I watch your car is very stiff springs or very heavy damping. Sometimes it looks like the car is bouncing on it's tires and that the suspension itself isn't moving. It's a very quick short bounce - low amplitude and high frequency. If that's the case the tire loads will spike up and down and cause a big time loss of traction. I ain't no Camaro guy but it sure does look like the car is too stiff from where I'm watching. You of course would know better than I but that's what it looks like to me from the outside.

Have you ever had the car on scales to corner weight it? Does it have a coilover type set up that allows you to adjust the corner weights? I should think that making sure those are close would also be a big help.

Of course my "advice" is worth every cent you've paid for it.

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby RayAR » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:28 am

Dave, I value your opinion but I will probably make some pretty big and multible changes over the winter. I will probably even scale it and add some weight so it's legal. From the drivers seat I really feels like it needs either more rear spring or less front spring, The car pushes on corner exit when I really need to be on the gas and my in car video verifies this. I am not really willing to go softer because I've been there, done that, didn't work so it looks like stiffer rears.

I feel I could put anyone in the car and they could drive it without an issue, it is that predictable/driveable, it just dosen't do anything wierd but that is probably part of the problem, Maybe the car needs to be more unpredictable to be fast. I just don't know, I am pretty happy with it right now but I also know that it could be faster.
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:22 am

RayAR wrote:Dave, I value your opinion but I will probably make some pretty big and multible changes over the winter. I will probably even scale it and add some weight so it's legal. From the drivers seat I really feels like it needs either more rear spring or less front spring, The car pushes on corner exit when I really need to be on the gas and my in car video verifies this. I am not really willing to go softer because I've been there, done that, didn't work so it looks like stiffer rears.

I feel I could put anyone in the car and they could drive it without an issue, it is that predictable/driveable, it just dosen't do anything wierd but that is probably part of the problem, Maybe the car needs to be more unpredictable to be fast. I just don't know, I am pretty happy with it right now but I also know that it could be faster.


That's interesting. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Is the rear bar easy to remove ? Could you pull it out and see what you get this Sunday so you have more or less an apples to apples comparison with the last event at the Ice Garden?

As for the easy to drive thing. I can see it both ways. From my very narrow range of experience I find that with the cars I've worked on that the more predictable and easy to drive the car is the faster I go. My Birkin is so damn simple and easy to drive it's silly. Could it be faster if I changed it in some way that made it less predictable but say a bit less prone to understeer in slow corners? Maybe. I think my personal driving style is best with a neutral car that is very predictable so that I can as fully as possible exploit the the limits of the car. I would think that it depends on your driving style and preferences.

I look forward to getting together this weekend.

dave
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby JoeE » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:57 am

RayAR wrote:I feel I could put anyone in the car and they could drive it without an issue, it is that predictable/driveable, it just dosen't do anything wierd but that is probably part of the problem, Maybe the car needs to be more unpredictable to be fast


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DaveMk1 wrote:Is the rear bar easy to remove ? Could you pull it out and see what you get this Sunday?

Or just disconnect one end?
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:13 am

JoeE wrote:
RayAR wrote:I feel I could put anyone in the car and they could drive it without an issue, it is that predictable/driveable, it just dosen't do anything wierd but that is probably part of the problem, Maybe the car needs to be more unpredictable to be fast


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DaveMk1 wrote:Is the rear bar easy to remove ? Could you pull it out and see what you get this Sunday?

Or just disconnect one end?


Yeah but which end do you remove? :)

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby WD40 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:53 am

DaveMk1 wrote:Yeah but which end do you remove? :)
dave

Well, the connected end of course. :roll:
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby Alex » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:03 am

Ray, this page might be useful to you for figuring out spring rates based on ride frequencies.
http://www.optimumg.com/documents/techt ... _Tip_1.pdf

I don't know how your weight distribution is like, but it sounds like you are awfully stiff in the front, especially compared to the rear. I also don't know what sort of motion ratio you are dealing with (wheel rate vs spring rate). Is it wildly different front to rear? Because that could be why it sounds like its so much different.

You also may be interested in the program they have on that site (optimum K). Basically, it lets you model your suspension geometry, and then run it through motion and see how the outputs are. What happens to your camber, toe, ect, on body roll, dive, squat, ect. Its fairly complicated to learn, but a great tool. Only downside to the demo is it won't let you save. I got arround this by just taking screen shots of my setup when I used it for my car, making it easy to re-enter everything.

Of course, all this is just theory. How it actually drives may or may not match up:)

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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby Mel Kuipers » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:00 pm

the discussion of your car Ray, has been very helpful in understanding all the dynamics of car performance...I don't really want to change much on my car, but want all of the contributors to this discussion to know how much car fun I am having just reading all the views...thanks, Mel
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby DaveMk1 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:18 pm

rosebud_59047 wrote:the discussion of your car Ray, has been very helpful in understanding all the dynamics of car performance...I don't really want to change much on my car, but want all of the contributors to this discussion to know how much car fun I am having just reading all the views...thanks, Mel


Hey Melo Mel,

I've got a cutting torch, a hack saw, a big hammer and a level and some shoegoo. Let's play with your car and see what we can make it do!

Dave
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby Mel Kuipers » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:42 pm

thats ok by me...but it does have to get by Judi--it is her car after all...I am just allowed to drive it on an event by event only basis...she did like my idea of the hoosiers tho, after she made one run on them....
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby RayAR » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:12 pm

I am far from understanding anything about suspension, The changes I made over the Winter where a result of a lot time just thinking about what the car was doing and changing what I thought would work. This website was the insperation for my car http://axwaresystems.com/cpcamaro/ and my original build was very similar to it with softer springs only mine is much rougher around the edges. His last spring rates before he sold it where 900 FR 500 rear, that tells me that I need more rear spring. I just don't think I can run 900 lb fronts unless I cut the fenders more, add a stiffer front sway bar, raise the ride height a little or a combination of the three. Raising the ride height is probably a good option as it should give me a better camber curve, Cutting the fenders would just be for clearance and I feel a stiifer front bar is my worst option, I would probably be just as well off with my stiffer springs. Honestly, I wish I could get by running without sway bars, I even tried that last season and think that I had too much body roll that really killed my camber.

I have also used this from multi CP champion Buddy Jasmin. A little dated(probably from around 2001) but still good info. http://cp-new.carlc.com/modules/content/index.php?id=8 It's a Mustang but he is an advocate of big springs, soft shocks and small sway bars And I tend to agree with his thoughts. Try to get the suspension movement as free as possable and control body roll with the springs instead of sway bars. This car has many CP and CPL championships including 2007's CPL winner and it is probably just as rough around the edges as mine but probably has 20+ years of development time.
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Re: Ice Garden 9/21

Postby RayAR » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:20 pm

DaveMk1 wrote:
rosebud_59047 wrote:the discussion of your car Ray, has been very helpful in understanding all the dynamics of car performance...I don't really want to change much on my car, but want all of the contributors to this discussion to know how much car fun I am having just reading all the views...thanks, Mel


Hey Melo Mel,

I've got a cutting torch, a hack saw, a big hammer and a level and some shoegoo. Let's play with your car and see what we can make it do!

Dave

Thats the CP way. Who cares what it looks like as long as it performs. Someday I will have the Camaro dialed in and when that finally happens everyone better watch out :wink:
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